Author Topic: Judge not?  (Read 130 times)

Offline Shalom

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Judge not?
« on: July 27, 2017, 09:18:13 PM »
There is a favorite phrase used by many when they are confronted with their own sin and they usually say 'Judge not, lest you be judged.' Only one thing it is a misquote because it actually says, "Judge not, lest you be not judged." So what does this really mean? Does it mean that Y'shua is telling His disciples to no longer judge or are we missing something? Why would Y'shua go against His own Father's Word? If He did He would cease to be Messiah.

Looking at it from an Hebraic view it says 'Rightly rule not, and you will not be rightly ruled.' Then if we read further into the narrative it verifies this concept. 'For with what ruling you use to make a ruling, you will be ruled the same, and with what measure you dish it out, it will be measured to you again.' So if one gives judgment based upon man's laws or if they show partiality or take a bribe and show little to no mercy or love and lack of justice, and they don't rule rightly in line with Elohim's Word which contains justice, love, and mercy, then that same type of ruling will be dealt to them in like measure.

In the Torah of Elohim we are told to appoint judges (right rulers) over us to make decisions between brother's, and man and man and other situations and the judges are to be ones who use Elohim's Word, love, and mercy for the base and they are to be ones who do not take bribes or look the other way but make good and wise decisions. This IS what Y'shua is teaching His disciples to do.


 


Offline akaspooky

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Re: Judge not?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2017, 10:59:03 PM »
Misquote or not, the saying holds true.  If you don't bring up the subject, others may not notice that you're doing the same things you say you hate others doing.  Jesus has zero tolerance for hypocrisy.

Aramaic-GLT

1 JUDGE not, that you may not be judged. 2 For with the same judgment that you judge, you will be judged, and with the same measure with which you measure, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the splinter which is in your brother's eye, and do not feel the beam which is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, let me take out the splinter from your eye, and behold there is a cross beam in your own eye? 5 O hypocrites, first take out the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to get out the splinter from your brother's eye.
http://www.studylight.org/bible/glt/matthew/7.html
 

You say "we are told to appoint judges (right rulers) over us to make decisions between brother's"... but that's not the covenant for today.  (Sad as it is, today is the time of Edom's rule and Esau's judgments... has been for a very long time.)  For the people of God, this scripture has been in effect since John 20:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.
     "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Jesus says the Holy Spirit will remind us what Jesus said.  IMHO, that means we all have been given a conscience, per se, so that we will each decide whether or not we want to listen to our conscience and keep the new covenant Jeremiah 31 told us about, and Jesus brings to us. 

Ultimately, Jesus leaves it up to us.  Whosoever will... loves Jesus, and will keep His commandments.  And whosoever will not, doesn't and won't.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, "Will ye also go away?" 68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

Offline Shalom

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Re: Judge not?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2017, 05:59:56 AM »
You are correct about Edom, but how am I being hypocritical. Y'shua never negated His Father's Word for if He did He ceases to be Messiah. The only thing 'new' about the new covenant is placement of the Torah of Elohim. Appointing judges will still be a part of the covenant.

Offline akaspooky

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Re: Judge not?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2017, 12:22:07 PM »
I'm sorry you think I meant that you were the one being hypocritical, Shalom.

I meant that all people who complain about others doing what they themselves are known for... THOSE people are the hypocrites... And usually without even noticing it, since SELF-evaluation doesn't seem to be their strong suit (sorry for the card-playing analogy).

As for judges still being part of the new covenant, I don't see Jesus talking about it... not even in the Revelation.  Jesus says we are all brethren.  In the context, that means none of us is qualified to judge between brethren.  Our conscience should be our judge.  The only time Jesus mentions taking an issue to the group at large, He doesn't seem to be retracting what He'd said about no man being master... or teacher, or judge, not to put too fine a point on it.  Whenever man has intermediaries, the intermediaries seldom fail to become Nicolaitanes... lording it over them.  Acts may show something different, but Acts is after all, anonymous.  Jesus gave us the 12 to testify what He said to us, in the final analysis.  And the Holy Spirit is given to remind us of their testimony of our Lord.  Which, in my mind, means that we are to do our very best to have studied Jesus' words, so that we can more easily remember what we have learned.

Again, I am sorry that you thought I'd called you a hypocrite, Shalom.  If anything else is true, you are the very LEAST person here to be guilty of hypocrisy.  That is, if everyone is the person they portray themselves to be. 

If not, they have only themselves to blame for what the world thinks of them.  Some say that no one online is genuine... that it's all a very large role-playing scenario.  I doubt that very much.  If that were the case, all of them should head for Hollywood, and stand in line for the next Best Actor award. 

« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 12:28:12 PM by akaspooky »
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, "Will ye also go away?" 68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

Offline Shalom

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Re: Judge not?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2017, 06:08:38 PM »
We are all brethren but we all have roles and being a judge is not in any way shape or form about lording it over anyone, in fact they were meant to settle disputes and handle questions relating to the Torah or how it is to be understood. That is what Moses did and he is called the most humble man who has ever lived. He knew who he was and he never tried to lord over anyone, but there were those who did try to lord over Israel, Korach comes to mind.

Thanks for the apology, from what was written it came across all inclusive. I understand because I have been guilty of the same thing of how I write something.


Offline akaspooky

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Re: Judge not?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2017, 12:54:33 PM »
We are all brethren but we all have roles

According to Paul, yes... but not according to Jesus, no, not at all.

In fact, Jesus says he hates the deeds of the Nicolataines.  And those were the men who came in and handled things relating to the Kingdom of God.  In the context of Revelation 2, we see those men as the ones who said that eating food in the temple of the demon was OK, because Jesus said eating with unwashed hands is OK.  Yeah... they handled things alright.  They handled them so well that they were flung out of Asia by the scruff of their necks.

Of course, this isn't then, is it.  Some people even condemn what Calvin taught... when Calvin taught nothing that wasn't written in Paul's Epistles.  I don't even begin to understand how that happens, but I used to be called a Calvinist without ever having read Calvin.  Irony?


and being a judge is not in any way shape or form about lording it over anyone, in fact they were meant to settle disputes and handle questions relating to the Torah or how it is to be understood. That is what Moses did and he is called the most humble man who has ever lived. He knew who he was and he never tried to lord over anyone, but there were those who did try to lord over Israel, Korach comes to mind.

That's because they chose to listen to Moses, rather than stand naked in the presence of God.  As I've already said, that entire scenario is not true of today... I thought you'd agreed with me.


"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."--Matthew 23:8-9

To my mind, that means the Holy Spirit will "teach us all things":

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."--John 14:26

And by all things, Jesus means what He'd said to us... and that the Holy Spirit is the only interpreter of what those words mean, and how they are used/fit together.  Jeremiah 31 says they will ALL know me, without needing a human judge or hair-splitter.  Jesus didn't leave us to the mercy of any man, specifically chosen or not. 

Jesus gave us the light of His word, held up, and held firmly in the Hand of the Holy Spirit... IMHO.  We who follow Jesus have no needs that haven't been met, and that ahead of time.


As for judgement, the verse says:

"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."--Matthew 7:2

Judge in that verse:

"krino - properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think."

It's the same Greek word as Judge in this verse:

"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."--John 5:22-23

And the Son which is the Christ, Jesus, says again that not only is ALL judgment given to Him of the Father, but that Master, Rabbi, and Father are to be the titles of God, for we who believe and follow Him.

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."--Matthew 23:8-9

It's hardly any wonder that the (Farsi?) Pharisees "judged" Jesus to death.  And it's no wonder that they sent Saul of Tarsus in to muddy the waters that flow from the words of God.  If you can't drag them to the synagogues and make them blaspheme, it's Psych 101 to teach them "revelations" of a new and very different religion... while cloaking it in Lamb's wool to fool the layman.  THIS is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us... so that we can (eventually) read what Jesus says, and compare it with what "Paul" said... and openly and honestly, decide if the two match.

Open and honest is hard when "Paul" has been written into the Holy Bible... but it can be done.  Canon is no more "God-breathed and God-inspired" than the Pauline Doctrines of Limited Atonement and Deathless Rapture.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, "Will ye also go away?" 68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

Offline Shalom

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Re: Judge not?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 05:54:34 PM »
Y'shua obviously established roles for His own disciples as Judas Iscariot was the holder of the funds and we know Peter, John, and James were very close to Him compared to the others. Elohim established roles for men and roles for women and then for certain people within those groups He established other roles in which came much more responsibility. So when one becomes a leader or a judge (right ruler) they are given a huge responsibility and if they 'lord' it over the ones they are responsible they will be held accountable for it and even be rebuked or disciplined in one way or another by Elohim and it usually isn't pleasant. I have been in that position and it isn't a pleasant thing. I don't care to 'lord' over anyone and that is never what Elohim ever wanted to begin with.

Y'shua even stated if you want to be great, you are to become a servant to all. That is not an easy task, it is a humbling task.

I will try to explain it better. Our Father wants us to join Him in how He does things, this is a privilege of great responsibility. He doesn't NEED you or I or anyone, He wants us to join Him in what He does and how He does it so we can learn to be like Him. Right ruling IS to be done by us and the Torah does tell us this and Y'shua only taught what the Father spoke and taught. This should be an honor on our part. I cannot change anyone's mind, I can only admonish, encourage, rebuke, and warn and I am finding out that one should not do it more than three times and even in some cases not more than once. People have to make up their own minds as to what they will or will not do.

Call no man rabbi (teacher) and no man your father is another misunderstood concept. That would be telling you to not call your own dad, father. This is not what it means otherwise we are all in a world of hurt.

The Holy Spirit DOES teach us all things IF we are willing to let that happen by simply obeying what was written to begin with. If one is in disobedience how can the Holy Spirit teach obedience? In other words if one turns his ear from responding to the Torah, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9

The thing about the renewed covenant of Jeremiah 31 is that it isn't in its fullness yet and won't be for a time. If you or anyone can show me that it is in its complete fullness I would really be surprised.

I see myself and others as people who are given certain responsibilities as we grow in Messiah and the more we learn and receive, the more we are to give and be careful of how we do things just as a child grows up in their family and finally by the time they are 18-20 they should be able to make good decisions and know how to do certain types of work that they were trained to do. We are to grow up and eat meat.



Offline akaspooky

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Re: Judge not?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 01:38:50 PM »
Y'shua obviously established roles for His own disciples as Judas Iscariot was the holder of the funds and we know Peter, John, and James were very close to Him compared to the others.

Jesus knew who was going to betray Him, so He let Judas hold the money... somebody had to hold it, and Judas probably had asked. 
     And yes, Peter and John and James were more close to Jesus than the others... but John sums up why by calling himself the one Jesus loved.  What more beautiful thought can ever be expressed by humanity? 
     As for Peter, Jesus says feed My lambs, ewes, and rams.  And I believe that Peter did just that.

Saul called Peter onto the carpet when Peter broke away from Saul's teachings and turned back to James... if Saul's testimony can be believed.  And Saul went to great lengths to build again that wall of separation that he says Jesus tore down when He nailed Moses' law to the cross, if Saul was apostle to the gentiles but Peter had a different message to give to the circumcision.  In fact, Shalom, Saul's anti-circumcision gospel spits in the face of Moses and the God who gave Abraham the covenant.  And that whole rigamarole concerning what particular second in time the covenant was born versus when the circumcision happened is sophistry.

How you can sit there day after day and consider Saul to be a faithful upholder of Torah is something I will never know.  Because when I was wearing your shoes, nobody in the world was telling me how Saul is wrong.  Maybe I'm just not that good at saying what I know... maybe Bentham's "Not Paul But Jesus" could do a better job.

https://archive.org/details/notpaulbutjesus00bentgoog
 

I will try to explain it better. Our Father wants us to join Him in how He does things, this is a privilege of great responsibility. He doesn't NEED you or I or anyone, He wants us to join Him in what He does and how He does it so we can learn to be like Him. Right ruling IS to be done by us and the Torah does tell us this and Y'shua only taught what the Father spoke and taught.

Yes, but Jesus didn't teach what our heavenly Father taught to Jeremiah or Moses.  Jesus doesn't diminish the words of former prophets, in any case.  Jeremiah had his own role, and so did Moses.  And the Son is the last one the Father sent, to come and proclaim new (parables, prophecies) things. 

Some say that everything changed when Jesus died, and that's why Saul wrote the things he did.  But Jesus knew He was going to die, and never once did He say that His Kingdom Gospel was going to be changed as a result of that death and resurrection.  And why would it? 
     Jesus says we are going to be judged by nothing more than the words that Jesus taught.  And He says, nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will He find faith in the world?(Luke)  He didn't mean the abstract worldly stand-alone term, He meant faith/trust/obedience to the words that His Father gave Jesus to tell us.

As James says, show me your faith apart from works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


Call no man rabbi (teacher) and no man your father is another misunderstood concept. That would be telling you to not call your own dad, father. This is not what it means otherwise we are all in a world of hurt.

I don't think it's misunderstood at all.  Jesus had to have known other men would come along and pretend to have begotten us by their own words, and even that the papas of Rome would desire also to be like Paul.


The Holy Spirit DOES teach us all things IF we are willing to let that happen by simply obeying what was written to begin with.

Jesus says all things means what He taught us. 
Letting Scripture tell us what Scripture means, not what we think-- or even want to think-- it means.


We are to grow up and eat meat.

Not according to Peter.

"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious."--1 Peter 2

Jesus says that His word is what cleanses us, and Peter says Jesus word makes us grow. 

The verse you're talking about came from Saul of Tarsus... and he doesn't seem to favor Jesus' word at all.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 01:45:12 PM by akaspooky »
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, "Will ye also go away?" 68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."